Getting into Hogwarts - Wards? Gates? Tunnels? Please help!

[birdsofshore]

I have so many questions about this. We all know that you can't Apparate into Hogwarts. But what are the ways you CAN get in?

1) If you arrive at the gates unexpectedly, can you get a message to the Castle to ask to be let in (a Patronus?)? Is there a bell or something? Or do you only get in if you're an expected (and welcome) guest?

2) Beauxbatons and Durmstrang were able to fly and sail to Hogwarts - was this because they were expected? Did Dumbledore lower the wards? Or can anyone just fly over the walls and get in? (with a broom, a flying motorbike, a thestral, a dragon?)  Could anyone just swim across the Lake and get in?

3) Do the boundary walls go all the way round and enclose the Forbidden Forest? Maps like this seem to suggest they do:



Or are there ways to sneak in via the Forbidden Forest?

4) House-elves can Apparate into Hogwarts - could a house-elf bring a person in by Side-Along Apparition?

5) Are there any other ways in? There are the 3 tunnels Harry knows of (do these all lead to Hogsmeade?) Do we know how long it takes to walk from Hogsmeade to the Whomping Willow? I know Fred and George say there are other tunnels that Filch doesn't know about, too.

This started off as research for a fic, and now I'm just curious. I'd love to know your thoughts - backed up with canon if at all possible :)

Thank you ♥

Comments

[chibitoaster.livejournal.com]

You can also floo into Hogwarts. And Buckbeak just flew away with Sirius, so I'm pretty sure you can just fly in and out.

Harry and Ron flew the car into Hogwarts, too.

[chibitoaster.livejournal.com]

I think it's more that there are wards to keep certain people out rather than keeping everyone out. Because think about all of the spectators for Quidditch games? They weren't just students, were they? And parents in most private schools can visit at any time. Lucius Malfoy visited unannounced.

[birdsofshore]

Re: Quidditch, I thought maybe the gates would be open on those days, with perhaps Filch 'welcoming' people in. (Were there definitely outsiders there? Or are we just supposing there were?)

Rita flew in, too, didn't she? You would think they might have warded to keep her out, but maybe it doesn't work for Animagus forms?

How did Lucius Malfoy get in? I neeeeeeeed to know all of the answers...

[chibitoaster.livejournal.com]

For that matter, how did Kingsley get in? And yes, it would have been open for the Triwizard Tournament, too, but it does seem like there are a lot of entrances and exits.

Oh, and don't forget the Hog's Head. Aberforth had that little escape hole, too.

[birdsofshore]

Yup the Hog's Head is an important one. I like the idea of there being others not mentioned specifically in the books, too. Gives us a nice bit of leeway when we're writing fic.

[v-chest-rechi.livejournal.com]

I'm the lurker of lurkers, but this was too interesting a discussion:)
If I remember correctly, Lucius is on the school board at the time, surely he could come and go.
upd: ha, someone wrote it below, there was no reason for me to break character :) *lurks away*

[birdsofshore]

Oh, brilliant! Of course they did! So there are no "all purpose" wards keeping everyone out?

Hmm. seems sort of simple to get in if you can just FLY in :/ Why do they make a big deal about Apparating? Why does Draco spend forever trying to fix the Vanishing Cabinets?

Who Floos in? (I did read the books, I swear :DDD My memory is for shit).

[chibitoaster.livejournal.com]

Well, you would have to have a working floo in the Hospital wing to get to St. Mungo's.

And I would think Death Eaters were warded out of Hogwarts - especially after Voldemort returned.

Now, the other point is that this is all happening outisde of the castle walls. Inside the walls - actually getting INTO the castle would have been difficult.

[birdsofshore]

That's fine, I'm more interested in getting into the grounds, I guess. :)

All of your points are really useful, thanks so much!

[anemonen.livejournal.com]

Didn't Dumbledore have to do something to the wards to enable Harry and him to fly in on brooms in high speed? Or had he reinforced the wards before he left? As chibitoaster said, H and R flew the car in. But then again Dumbledore seems to know everything and might have lowered the wards for them.

Thanks for sharing the map, I actually hadn't seen it before! My own mental map of the grounds were surprisingly similar, except I imagined the train station being the same place as Hogsmeade and the lake stretching out more in that direction :)

[birdsofshore]

You can read essays online about why JKR's map doesn't match up with everything in the books entirely, but it is useful to give an idea of the layout.

I've seen some really detailed ones including locations of every major incident in the books. The work that goes into them is incredible! But I keep forgetting to bookmark my favourites. I struggle with spatial skills so something visual like a map is very useful to me.

[anemonen.livejournal.com]

Oh, I need to check those maps out! I love when books include maps, and I always have to look and see where the places mentioned are.

[birdsofshore]

If you google Hogwarts map you'll find tons!

Thank you for mentioning when Dumbledore adjusted the watds so he and Harry could get in. I don't remember that.

[torino10154]

I was planning to comment about Dumbledore as well.

I feel like saying that overall it's hard to get in but there are plenty of ways you could get in, if you follow me. Yes, no one can Apparate but besides that, it seems a bit of a free for all.

Oh, and I thought all the tunnels had been listed at some point (HP Lexicon: There are at least eight secret passages that run between the school and Hogsmeade (PA10), all but two of which were built for reasons unknown (PA18, DH29)).

[birdsofshore]

Yes, no one can Apparate but besides that, it seems a bit of a free for all

Yup. This confuses me. The Vanishing Cabinets seem such a long-winded way to sneak people in.

I wasn't sure the tunnels were ever listed... But your link was v helpful:

Four secret passageways that Filch knows about
Not all of these passages necessarily lead to Hogsmeade, though "most of them" probably do. Regardless, nobody can use them, because Filch keeps watch over them (PA10). One of these is behind a statue of Gregory the Smarmy"> (PS9)

"Gregory the Smarmy" always makes me laugh :D

I reckon this leaves things open for further passageways to exist. As many as we want to, really.

[torino10154]

The Vanishing Cabinets seem such a long-winded way to sneak people in.

Rather like the entire plot of GOF and the Polyjuice. Yes, in ten months, no one ever got a clue. :P

[anemonen.livejournal.com]

I became a bit unsure so I had to check (I haven't read hbp in ages), and on page 544 of what I believe is the UK version, it says:Dumbledore was undoing the enchantments he himself had set around the castle, so that they could enter at speed. Although that might mean that he'd set extra wards for that night alone...?

[birdsofshore]

Fabulous catch there! That is really interesting. You can definitely interpret that in different ways...

I haven't read HBP in entirety for a long time because it just KILLS me. ;_;

Thank you very much for checking for me.

[fyrjurai.livejournal.com]

After the events of the TWT's third task, it would have been sensible to up the protection once all outsiders left.

On another note, could those "can't enter" enchantments be turned inwards so that the students couldn't leave in Year 7, so the resistance holed up in the RoR, to avoid the worst? They certainly blocked all 7 hidden passageways.

[birdsofshore]

I agree with both of these suggestions. The thought of enchantments to keep everyone in is rather chilling.

[fyrjurai.livejournal.com]

Especially since they used snatchers to force wayward wizard-born students to attend.

[capitu]

Damnit, woman, you're going to make me read OotP, HBP & DH all over again. This is going to drive me mad. ;)

[birdsofshore]

Yeah, that was the conclusion I had come to, sorry. I haven't got time, so I thought I'd ask the flist instead :D

[stgulik.livejournal.com]

"Wards" is a fanon phenomenon. In the books there were certain enchantments that protected people and places, but the word "ward" was not used. Dumbledore was not seen raising and lowering the enchantments at Hogwarts; I just assumed they were set in place by the founders and continually renewed, but not much is said. (ETA: I just read the comments and saw the one about Dumbledore raising the enchantments. Clearly I have some re-reading to do!)

In DH, Grawp and Hagrid were hiding out in a cave above Hogsmeade. During the final battle, Grawp smashed through the boundary to bring Hagrid and Fang back to the castle. That implies to me that there's a boundary encircling the castle, but it doesn't prove it definitively.

Last spring, I wrote an essay about Portkeys, which is another way to enter and leave the castle. It might be of use. http://hp-canon-love.livejournal.com/5261.html

[birdsofshore]

BRILLIANT. I think I'd already discarded Portkeys because I decided Hogwarts was warded against them :/

I'm going to read your essay, thank you so much!

That's interesting about the 'enchantments' v wards. I wonder what exactly the enchantments were...I did know wards were a fanon thing, at some point... but then you read it in fic ALL the time, and I easily become 100% convinced it is canon.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Sirius was speaking with Harry through the fireplace. I *think* he could have floo'd in, but was trying to be discreet?

And yes, he DID just fly away on buckbeak, but perhaps it's easier to leave than to arrive?

If it's for a fic, I really like the idea of a side-along apparition with an unwary house elf. Very sneaky! And god knows the elves are waaay stupid, and could probably be fooled into just about anything.

[birdsofshore]

Do you think anyone can just Floo? I am banging on, now, but in that case, WHY with the bloody Vanishing Cabinets?

I thought the same, about it being easier to leave than to arrive... but the flying car??

I'm glad you like my Side-Along idea! I'm not going to use it in my fic, I just thought of it while I was pondering all of this for hours on end. If anyone wants to steal it, they are very welcome!

[smallbrownfrog.livejournal.com]

The Ministry of Magic was capable of monitoring Hogwarts' floo system. Sirius almost got caught that way. (It was mentioned that Marietta's mother was helping monitor the floo system there.)

That makes me guess that the special thing about the vanishing cabinet is that it's not being tracked and will be a surprise.

[birdsofshore]

Oh, I adore all of these canon snippets that are coming out in the comments. I think you're right, that the Cabinets are a complete wild card and in no way to be expected.

[smallbrownfrog.livejournal.com]

I'm thinking that apparating is blocked because it's more precise and more of a hazard. If five or six people could apparate into Dumbledore's bedroom in the dead of night with no warning and no way to spot them coming, that would be much harder to defend against than someone flying or walking up to the castle, then entering the castle, then walking through it, then breaking down Dumbledore's door, and then (if he had held still for all of that) grabbing or killing him.

[birdsofshore]

YES you're so right.

that would be much harder to defend against than someone flying or walking up to the castle, then entering the castle, then walking through it, then breaking down Dumbledore's door, and then (if he had held still for all of that) grabbing or killing him.

and LOLOL at this

[sassy-cissa.livejournal.com]

even though it's HP Wiki - this has some interesting facts about the secret passages around Hogwarts.

But weren't some of them closed off by the Carrows or while they were there?

[birdsofshore]

I use the wiki a lot :/ I'm just too lazy to do proper research a lot of the time. Just sometimes the blatant wrongness amazes me!

But that's a great link. I love the wealth of detail in something like that. I have no idea how JKR can carry all this in her mind - I know she got muddled sometimes and contradicted things within canon, which doesn't surprise me in the least - but when you read her in interviews, she has canon down pretty pat and that in itself impresses me.

[who_la_hoop]

I think it is all a bit unclear and handwavey in canon :D I presumed that mainly Hogwarts was protected by being unplottable - so unless you were a student there, or know someone who was a student there, you wouldn't know exactly where it was.

There are also massive gates outside, and presumably they shut the main castle doors so you'd have to break down the door to get in if you were a naughty? IDK!

Look at THIS. Is it not marvellous? http://archiveofourown.org/works/1923315/chapters/4151205

[birdsofshore]

Ooh, yes, I saw that a while back on ao3 and forgot about it! it amazes me how people do these things with such loving detail.

I agree, a bit handwavey, for sure. Which is good, in a way, and gives us more wiggle room in fic. But harder sometimes to know what exactly you can get away with...

[who_la_hoop]

I have it bookmarked for future use in fic, haha; it looks so useful, and I can never remember where things are in the castle.

[kitty_fic]

Oh! This is a brilliant discussion! Would you mind if we linked it in the daily_snith?

[birdsofshore]

I wouldn't mind at all! I'm glad you think it might be useful.

[arenee1999]

In book 6 the anti-apparition spell was lifted in the Great Hall so students could practice for their apparition tests.

Lucius Malfoy is on the Hogwarts Board of Governors, so he'd likely be able to enter the school grounds anytime he pleases. The Minister of Magic can probably enter at any time as well.

In book 5 when Harry is late getting off the train (because Draco hexes him), Tonks had to come open the gate so he could get onto the grounds. She sends a patronus to the gate letting Harry know she's coming, so it's possible someone could get a patronus message past the gate.


So it sounds like the gates are kept closed except for special circumstances (the first day when students arrive, for quiddtich matches, Hogsmead weekend and the last day when students leave). Certain people likely have a password or spell that will let them enter/leave via the gates (staff, the board of governors, etc)

I always thought the Forbidden Forest was much larger than just the part that's on the Hogwarts grounds. So entry from there may be possible, but with all the nasty stuff that lives in there it would be dangerous to do so. The death eaters likely wouldn't want to risk having to battle dangerous creatures before the even made it onto the grounds.

The lake would have the same dangers as the forest. Besides the giant squid, the are Merpeople and grindylowes living in it. Swimming across it wouldn't be advisable, especially for a large group of people.

House elves apparte differently than humans do. Dobby was able to side-along people out of Malfoy Manor in the last book through the anti-apparition spells, so I'd think they could do the same with Hogwarts. Although it's possible only elves that work at Hogwarts could do so, but that's unlikely. Most Wizards don't think twice about house elves so they'd never think to ask/order them to do something like that.

The tunnels could be a potential way in, but since Filtch knows about most of them and the three to Hogsmead would be inconvenient for a group of people trying to make a stealth entrance you'd have to be desperate to try it. They also aren't very large so it would make for a difficult walk. The one from the shrieking shack could be used, but very few people actually know about that one since it wasn't built until the Marauder's were at Hogwarts and only they, Dumbledore and Snape even knew about it (and now Harry, Ron & Hermione).

In the 5th book Harry and Co. fly out on Thestrals and owls can come and go as they like. So magical animals can probably fly in at anytime, but brooms and the like will be stopped by some type of enchantment.

The enchantments/spells were probably lowered for Beauxbatons and Durmstrang to enter since Dumbledore knew when they'd be coming.

I have a theory on why the death eaters needed to use the vanishing cabinet. Dumbledore put a spell around the perimeter of the grounds to alert him anytime someone with a dark mark enters the grounds. By using the cabinet they don't cross the perimeter and don't trigger the spell so Dumbledore won't be warned they're coming.

[birdsofshore]

Gosh, thank you so much for this detailed and thoughtful post. I'm really interested in your theories and also the way you've backed them up with canon.

Certain people likely have a password or spell that will let them enter/leave via the gates (staff, the board of governors, etc)

This is a great explanation that I had not considered. It would answer a lot of my questions.

By using the cabinet they don't cross the perimeter and don't trigger the spell so Dumbledore won't be warned they're coming.

Yup, this totally works as well! Thanks so much for these ideas.

I was wondering if it would be OK to friend you, please? I'd be thrilled to have someone with such awesome canon knowledge on my flist.

[arenee1999]

I was wondering if it would be OK to friend you, please? I'd be thrilled to have someone with such awesome canon knowledge on my flist.

Of course! More Harry Potter friends are always welcome. :)

[zeitgeistic.livejournal.com]

1. I think Lucius came unexpectedly in CoS, and then Fudge and Dawlish and Kingsley in OoTP.

3. Weren't the Death Eaters chilling in the forest when Voldemort was giving his ultimatum in 7?

[birdsofshore]

God, your icon keeps doing my head in, LOL. If you look at it just really briefly, it looks like it's going to be a vagina, I swear, and I'm weird about vaginas, so I keep wincing, and then going, oh, boobs. :D

Yes, capitu mentioned that, about the Death Eaters in the Forest. We wonder if the boundary wall goes all the way round the back, or whether the forest is just really massive?

How do you think Lucius and co got in? Do you come to the gates and shout? Is there a bell? Does Dumbledore just SENSE you approaching? I can't picture it.

[zeitgeistic.livejournal.com]

lol a vagina icon would be...something. I think Dumbledore senses them and buzzes them in through the wards.