Writing 1st person POV

[birdsofshore]

I love to write in 1st person. I think I am a little bit hooked on it, tbh. I have been writing 1st person Draco for ages, but last year I wrote a lot of alternating 1st person, and really enjoyed that, too, and then this year I felt compelled to write 1st person Harry. With debatable results, BUT, I still very much enjoyed writing it, and wouldn't rule out doing it again.

My dracotops_harry fic was quite a long 1st person Draco POV, and I noticed a real trend in the comments to talk about the fact that people had liked it despite it being 1st person. This came up again and again, as if it was a complete rarity to enjoy a 1st person fic. Someone also left a bookmark which really made me laugh:

Usually first-persons are stinkers, but this wasn't.

WOW THANKS :D

Anyway, I mentioned to Mr Birds that apparently people felt mistrustful of 1st person, and he was surprised as well. We googled for a list of novels that were written in 1st person, and what do you know, a ton of my favourite books are 1st person. Catcher in the Rye, Jane Eyre, Lolita, Curious Incident of the Dog in the Nighttime, To Kill a Mockingbird, Breakfast at Tiffany's, A Clockwork Orange, The Perks of Being a Wallflower are all 1st person narratives. As a reader I find it a stunningly immersive experience, and if the narrator is unreliable or twisted or damaged then I enjoy it even more.

As a fanfic writer, obviously I'm not aiming for anything approaching those novels, but I find writing 1st person an easy way to make a connection, first with the character I'm writing, and then with the reader. I find writing other POVs distances me and the reader from the story that I'm telling. Maybe it's become a lazy habit and I should attempt to get that immediacy by other means, using 3rd person? I don't know. But I feel conflicted - I want to go on writing 1st person whenever it seems appropriate, but readers are telling me that they actively avoid 1st person fics.

Do people mistrust / dislike 1st person in original fic, or just in fanfic? Do you agree that 1st person fics are usually "stinkers"? If so, why? Do you enjoy reading 1st person? In fic? In original novels? Do you write it? Do you avoid it? I have all of the questions and none of the answers!

Comments

[birdsofshore]

I don't know why I find it so hard to understand omniscient. I'm going to go and google and see if I can educate myself. I've just reread HBP myself and I don't know what POV those chapters are, but like you, I'm pretty sure they're not Snape's.

[firethesound]

Pieces Left Incomplete It was for Remix last year. Just checked AO3 and it's my least popular fic. XD I guess POV really can scare off readers? Whatever. It's one of my faves.

What was the one that you'd originally done in 2nd person? I'm curious now.

And YES YES YES. I am glad to hear that. Your 1st person Draco is awesome and amazing. <3 <3 <3

[birdsofshore]

I think I'll need to consider more carefully whether it's the best POV for the story or whether I am doing it purely because writing it is a very id-ish experience for me. I really wasn't aware that it could cause people so many issues.

[birdsofshore]

It's the first time I've had this many comments about it on a fic - it was quite noticeable.

I think 2nd person in the right hands is quite devastating! I'm thinking lumosed_quill here. :D

[birdsofshore]

Ah, yes, that makes sense. I do think that when I write 1st person, people on my flist who like the same kinks as I do tend to be very enthusiastic about it. I think you've hit the nail on the head.

it makes it harder to ignore things that don't gel with how I generally see/feel characters.

Yes! All of these explanations are starting to make 1st person feel like a rather arrogant choice! asdfghjklasdfghjk :(

[birdsofshore]

Yes, I always think of lumosed as soon as anyone mentions 2nd person! She's a genius!

I can understand why people can tolerate it more easily in shorter fics. I think I am starting to understand the drawbacks more clearly. I'm quite glad I didn't realise any of this before I started writing 1st person. I'd never have dared to try it!

[chickenpumpkin.livejournal.com]

Oh, my god, this is gonna be such a rant, you don't even know ;D There's a tl:dr at the end if you wanna. (Also, you have excellent taste in 1st person literature, Birds, seriously.)

I loathe 1st person with the fire of a thousand suns--in general. More specifically...I'm incredibly picky and judgmental, and I can turn into a total jerkface about it. Again, there's seriously a tl;dr at the bottom. Feel free to make use of it.

In grad school, we devoted an entire semester to 1st person, which seemed excessive at first, although by the end I felt like it was warranted. The teacher was amazing, though, as when she said that technically speaking, ALL 1st person fics are unreliable narrator fics--or they should be, because we all view the world subjectively, with varying degrees of accuracy and honesty. Every single word is filtered through a character's internal bullshit, and since we're all colored by where we come from and how we got here, and most of us give our behavior about as much thought as we give a sitcom, we're all a skewed reality, or at least, we should be. (Which isn't as problematic in 3rd person--which we spent another entire semester on, ffs). It takes a lot of skill on the part of the writer to offer readers an objective look at an inherently subjective person.

Obviously, this broke my brain, and it made me aware of the flaws of a lot of 1st person narrators, which made me hate hate hate it, because all I did was think--is this the narrator I'm hearing or the author? In 3rd, we expect some authorial interpretation, but that shouldn't exist in 1st at all, and it's so terribly hard to weed it out. And then there's the fact that no one thinks as orderly as fiction must write--we're all a mass of intruding thoughts and emotions and it's rare to come across a book that captures the unwieldy nature of inner thought while also still being readable. Which is sort of the fourth wall of fiction, I suppose--in that we all know that's not really what thought is like, but we pretend we're all organized thinkers because no one really wants to read that stream of consciousness shit or else Ulysses would be more than an exercise in elitism for undergrad lit students. But it can feel disingenuous to me in 1st, whereas in 3rd, I'm just grateful to the author for putting shit in some semblance of order.

The exception to my jerkface, though, is books with a very distinctive narrative voice--including pretty much every book you listed, which is why they work for me. Lolita is one of the most brilliant fucking books ever--pun both intended and not, I suppose--because Humbert Humbert is basically the definition of 1st person done right. Every time I read it, I think "I will never write that well and I should give it up now to go do glassblowing or some such." I can read some Draco 1st person fics--in the hands of a good writer, the sneer, sarcasm, and vulnerability, all add up to a very distinctive personality. And everybody in this fandom knows Draco, uh, intimately, ahem--we know when someone gets Draco wrong, and we know when someone gets him right. This is why your 1st person fics are some of the very few I don't automatically back-button--you get Draco, so you do him right. And then you have Harry do him right. XP I can only think of a handful of 1st person fics with Harry as narrator that I've made it through, though. He tends to suffer from generic narrator syndrome, where the voice is so bland that we might as well let the wallpaper narrate the story.

Um, this is probably way more than you were looking for, wasn't it? Like way, way more. Why do you have to make me think so hard, Birds? WHY? (Actually that's a front-- I love stuff like this and you're awesome for having deep writerly thoughts and asking us to have deep writerly thoughts in return.).

tl;dr: First person is complete horseshit unless it's done really well, and that's really hard, so...yeah, usually horseshit. And Birds is cool. ;P

[birdsofshore]

Ah, I don't think I've read that! I will enjoy it later. I doubt it's just the POV that made it less noticed - I don't think remix is the most widely read fest, and shorter pieces never get many reads on AO3 IME.

My 2nd person was I Shall Not Speak. http://hp-silencio.livejournal.com/7298.html
There were some things I really liked about it in 2nd person, but it did feel a bit self-conscious. It's funny thinking of it, now - if I'd have kept the title, that would have been You Shall Not Speak, which has a completely different vibe to it. Anyway, I can't really imagine it as 2nd person now because when I think of the fic, I always think of raitala's podfic of it, and can't imagine it any other way.

And <33333 right back to you. Thank you. <3

[nerakrose]

I'm generally more wary of 1st person POV than 3rd person (I see 2nd only very rarely), but I don't dislike it or hate it. I've read some really good fiction and fanfiction written in 1st person POV. I'm wary of it, though, because when the writing is mediocre or bad, it just reads like a never ending really dull and overly detailed blog post, and I just...can't be arsed with that. I just do not care about that sort of thing and never have. And sometimes it's really hard to see where the line between the author's lack of imagination and the intentional dullness of the character. Case in point: katniss' internal thought "the saltiness reminded me of my tears" about porridge she was eating. Author's lack of imagination or katniss' inherent dullness? who knows. Not me, but it doesn't matter as I'm not a fan either way. I don't read boring blog posts. <.<
so yeah, I'm wary. I'm reading the grisha trilogy atm and when I opened the first book and found out it was in 1st person, i had a "sigh, okay, let's see how this goes" moment because I really did not want to sit through a potentially very boring account of the plot. Sometimes, not always, I feel like if the POV switched from 1st to 3rd, the pitfalls of the 1st person POV choice that can make a book boring would be avoided. (I'm enjoying the trilogy btw, the writing isn't the most amazing I've ever seen, but the POV is fine and (so far) it's not boring.)

I prefer to write in 3rd person when I write, I think because I don't want to be in my characters' head. I want to see what they look like on the outside, and try to figure out who they are by observing them and what they do and say. If I'm in their head I feel claustrophobic and like I'm getting all the answers too fast, which then just ends up boring me. If I'm to write about confused characters or whatever, I really need to not be in their head.
(Side effect of being very introspective, perhaps. I know myself very well and am very attuned to my own feelings and inner workings at all times, and I find it hard to relate to/read about characters written in 1st person who don't, and even harder to write them. I get so frustrated! How do you not know how you're feeling??? I scream at characters who think "I didn't know how I felt when he touched me". Gah! Writing them is worse because I feel like I'm making them deliberately obtuse for no good reason at all. Meh.)

I know lots of people hate 1st person POV, but when I've talked to people about it they've all had different reasons that rarely boil down to the POV as the sole reason. 1st person POV doesn't deserve the bad rap it gets, because it can really be amazing when the writing is otherwise good, but the same thing can be said for 3rd person POV, really.

[birdsofshore]

Ahhhhh, this wasn't tl;dr at all! This is interesting and informative stuff - and also, you said I was awesome, so it's automatically a FASCINATING comment :D

You know, I do have excellent taste in 1st person literature, but it's not like I had to whittle the list down very much. When you google "1st person POV novels" you basically get a list of awesomeness! It's true! I was like, "OK, so THAT'S why I think it's a good idea to write this way."

But I am really intrigued (and jealous) about all of the study you did on POVs. The conclusions are bending my mind a little, too, but there's so much there to ponder on.

And Lolita: Every time I read it, I think "I will never write that well and I should give it up now to go do glassblowing or some such."

aaaaaahhhhhhh yes. How true. I know. But so inspiring, too, don't you think? That people exist who can DO those things with words. That there even are such words to play with. Do you like Flaubert? He makes me feel that way, often.

you get Draco, so you do him right

Golly, this makes my heart sing, coming from you. I think maybe I was looking for a little reassurance that it's OK to carry on writing 1st person sometimes. I'm so glad you enjoy my Draco. I really feel I relate to all of the shittiest parts of him, and then I have great fun writing id-fic about all the most excellent parts of him. So I do hope it works.

And THANK YOU for getting all enthused and deep about my vague and bewildered questions. I always beam when i see you've commented on an entry of mine, because I know it's going to be something interesting.

[chickenpumpkin.livejournal.com]

Aw you're sweet ;D As for studying POV--it was entirely fascinating, and not nearly as ridiculous (or difficult) as the class I took on character and authorial voice, which took a simple concept and deepened it to the point where all my thoughts about it were completely dismantled and which I still haven't recovered from.

As for pondering...getting my MFA made me a much more thoughtful, aware writer, even if it also made the process infinitely more complicated and uncertain. It's probably just as effective to read a great many textbooks and classical novels and then get drunk with a bunch of highly-analytical writer friends at a bar to argue about what you've read (definitely much cheaper, even if you're drinking top-shelf). Although nothing really replicates the sheer soul-destroying misery and terror that is The Workshop. There's nothing like having your story torn to pieces by people who are equally invested in watching you get better because they need you to return the favor and watching you fail so they can be the best. It was excruciating, but I produced some of my best writing while I was there, so it's hard to fault the process. Plus, there's really nothing that anyone can say about my stuff now that I can't blow off.

I think Draco appeals to the part of all of us that can be petty and mean despite the fact that we're not petty and mean people, and he's completely id-enjoyable, if that makes sense. Plus, in some ways, he's very reassuring as a character--no matter how shoddy we are as people, he's done worse, and if he's redeemable, then so are we. Besides, he does have his compensatory qualities, doesn't he? ;D

And I adored Madame Bovary! It was beautiful and sad and Flaubert writes the most perfect sentences. I read it in about 2 days and felt completely insignificant as a writer for like, a week afterwards. The bastard. (And yes, then I had to go try to do all the things he did, albeit with rather less-stellar results). Another one that I found myself in awe of was East of Eden. Have you read it? I'm not actually a huge Steinbeck fan, but I couldn't put that one down.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_melodic_/]

For anything over 1k I always write in 3rd person and I wasn't sure why until I read all these comments. I guess 1st person can be scary and difficult to achieve properly (eep my noob writer self is showing) and perhaps that is why I haven't ventured into it. Personally, for reading purposes, I like both 1st and 3rd person, (2nd can be tricky, I've only ever written two drabbles in it but I did read an amazing and long 2nd person POV DTH that was so good) and it certainly does not deter me from reading a fiction. I do understand some people's comments about being attached to a certain character and having a preconceived idea of how that character acts/thinks but at the same time usually 3rd person is written from one characters POV and to a similar extent you are diving into their head space as well. To me, personally, you're either a great or decent author or you're writing might be lacking/need some work and whether the story is written in 1st, 2nd or 3rd doesn't really change that.

p.s. I *adore* your 1st person POV fics!

[groolover.livejournal.com]

I do actively avoid 1st person in everything I read, original or fanfic. I have read quite a few things that are in first person, but I've always felt a bit uncomfortable while doing so. There are a few things that I've enjoyed despite them being first person - in fact I'm often surprised to go back and re-read something I remember loving if I then remember it was first person.

I won't read a first-person story if I'm aware it's first-person (so it does irritate me a little when people don't warn for that... silly, I know, but it's one of the few things I care about when deciding whether or not to read!). (Second-person even more so... *shudder*.) If I start a story and it turns out to be first-person, I won't read on. The only circumstances in which I'll read them is if (a) the author is one I know and like; AND (b) there is some extra reason to make me really, really want to read that particular story - e.g. the plot sounds extra-intriguing, or (more likely) a friend who knows what I usually like pesters me to read it. Just having an author I like isn't enough on its own, sorry. (I do love your stuff, but haven't read the story in question because of all this, sorry!)

So, you will quite reasonably ask, WHY does it make me so uncomfortable? I've thought about this a lot over the years, and I've come to the conclusion that it's the hint of arrogance. It's really, really difficult to have a first-person narrative in which the POV character never comes across as arrogant (in their thoughts), and arrogance is not usually a likeable trait. An example that springs to mind is the Dresden Files series by Jim Butcher. I love that series, and will continue to read it, DESPITE the fact that Harry Dresden is the first-person POV character... but I do feel uncomfortable while doing so. I'd be really interested to see how a book in that series would come across in 3rd person.

Does any of that make any sense? I suppose it all boils down to: there are so many great things I'm yet to read, so why choose ones that I know will make me uncomfortable?

[minesomine.livejournal.com]

I like 1st person POV. It doesn't make me run away. Keep writing the way you feel works best for you.

[lq-traintracks.livejournal.com]

Awwww! I'll give you your 20 bucks later. ;-) ;-)

I guess I'll go ahead and chime in with my own two cents here. I think anyone can make a mess of any POV or trope or writing style or anything, and on the flip side, someone else can take anything and make it genius. Also, we all have our tastes. You can't please everyone all the time and you shouldn't. You should be you. <3 I happen to think writing first person Draco POV is a secret weapon of yours. I've rarely seen someone do it with such commitment to a voice. Your Draco is so very much your Draco, and that may not be everyone's cup of tea. I happen to think it's brilliant, and I know so very many others who agree. But you write a very specific Draco. He's much MORE real to me than JKR's, and I find him fascinating and wonderful. He's so different than I write him and I LOVE that. I fully believe in him when I'm reading your words. You suck me in and leave me on the edge of my seat. I'm super relieved to see you say you'd write him regardless of anyone else wanting you to or liking it! But rest assured, I always will. ;-) <3

I used to write a TON of first person myself, like years ago. I started writing more 3rd person for this fandom for two reasons: it's the same as the original canon, which makes it easier for me to access the characters, and also, being that I'd written a lot of first person in the past, I felt less adequate in 3rd person and I wanted to get better at it. I'd like to venture back into doing 1st person from time to time, but I think I'd have a better grasp of writing other characters that way, not Harry or Draco. I'm less confident in writing them how I'd want to. I think I'd like to give Pansy a try, honestly. When I wrote from her POV in Get a Room, it was so fun, and I felt like she was super accessible!

On the topic of literature, I have (I counted them just now), 12 novels that I love that are first person. And what I have on my bookshelf right now is pale in comparison to what I have had, simply because when I moved here, I had to only bring what would fit in my car. So there are many others, I'm sure! I think, with original fiction, genre or lit or what have you, it's easier to get into first person just by virtue that this is your own character that you've created, so there's really no getting it "wrong". People come at fanfic with preconceived notions of these characters' voices and traits. Which isn't to say we can't do 1st person and do it well. It's just not going to be to everyone's taste.

But yes, PLEASE keep doing it! You're wonderful at it! And I'd cry if you stopped! Thank you for the lovely vote of confidence in my 2nd person! I do love writing it. I look to the ever-genius Lorrie Moore to learn how it's done. She's a goddess of it and why I wanted to ever try it in the first place! I think we all have our strong points with writing style, and I think one of yours is certainly taking on a spellbinding first person POV! ♥

[lq-traintracks.livejournal.com]

OMG {{{{{{{{{{{YOU}}}}}}}}}}}}}}! Gah! Thank you, Ali. ♥

[lq-traintracks.livejournal.com]

♥

And I just want to be clear, in case I wasn't up there. There are NO drawbacks to YOU writing first person! To maybe flip this so that you can see my point, you wouldn't want me to suddenly question writing second person and consider stopping, right? You wouldn't characterize my doing so as arrogant, right? So just turn that on yourself. It makes me nervous, you talking about 'drawbacks' and 'arrogance'. Just please don't stop writing in 1st person. You know I'll hunt you down (it's not hard! :-P ) and threaten and beg and such! Don't make me. LOL!

[teddyradiator.livejournal.com]

With anything, I think it's the skill of the author as to how any POV works out. I'm a big believer in the story writing itself, and showing the author how it should be written. I remember writing a short story in first person and submitting it to a publisher, who said she would prefer it in third person. I rewrote it in third person, and it just didn't have any lift at all. It was functional, but it had lost its spark. I ended up not resubmitting it because it was not the story I had written.

[oakstone730.livejournal.com]

I'm in the middle of rewriting the OF (again) having finally found a solution to certain plot points that I think will work - and yes I'd love for you to read it. Switching to 1st POV is something I've done a couple of times - Unexpected Turn was originally written 3rd and I was more than halfway through when I realized it *needed* to be 1st. What is odd to me, as a writer, is what brings that need to switch POV. Solder I didn't have a problem doing in 3rd, never felt compelled to switch it. So why those other two stories?

[alisanne.livejournal.com]

LOL. Dude, it's totally true. {{{hugs}}}

[oceaxe.livejournal.com]

I adore 1st person because I love unreliable narrators. If it's done well, you have the fun of trying to figure out what's really going on vs what the character thinks is really going on. For instance, in Higher and Higher, we get to have the thrill of knowing (when Draco doesn't) that Harry is like WAY into him, which Draco won't let himself see. I find that very entertaining. It can open up vistas of tragedy, too - illuminating the divide between the character's desires and the likelihood of them being sated.

One of my favorite 1st person novels is The Black Prince by Iris Murdoch. More than half the enjoyment of reading the book is trying to determine exactly _how_ delusional the narrator is. You and I recently talked briefly about The Sea The Sea - the narrator of TBP is both more delusional and more likeable than that 1st person narrator. Knowing the the narrator is deluded/blinded feels very real and relatable to me, because I'm always wondering to what extent I'm blinded to the nature of what's "really happening."

[lijahlover.livejournal.com]

I personally like all pov's as long as it is well written I'm good. :)))))

[lauren3210.livejournal.com]

I have a friend, whom I am currently editing for in the hopes that she can get it published professionally. She's an astonishingly good writer, but at the moment we are struggling a bit, because her MS calls for multiple 1st person povs, and had hard as we try, they all keep sounding alike. The problem is that, like all good writers, she has a distinctive style, a certain way of writing that makes it special to her. The problem with 1st person, is that that distinctive style tends to carry over into that narrative, and becomes a quirk of that particular character by necessity. 1st person narration tend to be stinkers - when it comes to fanfic, anyway - because the writer either hasn't yet developed a style (leaving the narration bland and uninviting), or because the writer's already developed style is nothing like the characters we already know and love. It takes someone really special to be able to match their voice with that of an already established character, and as interpretation is subjective, there's always going to be some people who don't find it a good fit. It's different in original fic, because there the important issue becomes whether or not the writer's style matches with the character they have created, and whether or not that match is then strong enough to carry the weight of an entire novel. Some of the best novels out there are written in 1st person pov, and they're considered some of the best novels because the strength of the character and the author's style have meshed together so well that they become something transcendental and timeless.

(all just my opinion, of course, please feel free to ignore!)

[nia_kantorka]

I fell in love with 2nd person pov over taradiane's Not My Boyfriend (http://archiveofourown.org/works/1864809) from 2014's Smoochfest, still one of my all time favourites. It was that brilliant that I had to watch the movie and had to give this narrative a try in my first BDSM fic (kinks work well in that pov).

But I agree, if 1st and 2nd ppov aren't done well (the pov has to ring true in the reader's ears) one hits the back button sooner than while reading 3rd ppov. The latter is more forgiving.

It's interesting to see all the different reasons though why people like it or not. :)

Omniscient narrator. Had to google for examples because tbh I have problems to distinguish between pov switches, omniscient limited, and omniscient narration. Little Women by Alcott and Da Vinci Code by Brown. Had no problems with both of them.
JK Rowling used omniscient limited narrator with pov switches in HP and we probably all agree that she did it well. :)
(sources: http://literarydevices.net/omniscient/ and https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narration). And I still don't know if a pov switch always changes a narration to omniscient limited, but I'm not a linguist so I'll survive without this particular knowledge. ;)

[http://users.livejournal.com/_hannelore/]

Interesting question! It seems like the "1st person is horrible" thing that I heard about was when I joined fandom, so I thought too that maybe it was a fanfic thing. I tend to avoid writing 1st person POV myself maybe because of this, but when I do read other fiction it really depends on how it's done. I guess long story short is that any POV can be done in an amazingly wonderful way ("Call me Ishmael" comes to mind re: 1st person POV) but I have to be sold on it.