Did Lavender die?

[birdsofshore]

This has been puzzling me lately.

In Deathly Hallows it says:

"Two bodies fell from the balcony overhead as they reached the ground a grey blur that Harry took for an animal sped four-legged across the hall to sink its teeth into one of the fallen. "NO!" shrieked Hermione, and with a deafening blast from her wand, Fenrir Greyback was thrown backward from the feebly stirring body of Lavender Brown. He hit the marble banisters and struggled to return to his feet. Then, with a bright white flash and a crack, a crystal ball fell on top of his head, and he crumpled to the ground and did not move."

So, "feebly stirring" to me, meant that she was injured, perhaps seriously injured, but not dead. When I read it, I expected her to get medical treatment after the Battle was over, and that she would survive.

Then, when I saw the film version of Deathly Hallows, I noticed that it looks as if Lavender is killed by Greyback during the attack. You could argue she is unconscious, or paralysed, but she does look dead. However I just passed it off as either a) making her look more seriously injured to be dramatic, or b) one of those things where the films differ from the books. I don't count film canon as superceding book canon, in any case.

However, when I went to Harry Potter Wiki to check something, (yes, yes, I know it's not exactly the most pre-eminent source, but where else do I look?) they are quite certain that Lav is dead:

"Immediately after the attack, she was seen feebly stirring, but later died from her injuries."

They cite Harry Potter Page to Screen: The Complete Filmmaking Journey as the source for this. I do actually own this book, and it's lovely, but it's freaking massive and I am not trawling through it at the moment to see on whose say-so Lavender allegedly died.

Now, I've seen Lavender alive and kicking in several fanfics lately. I don't want her to be dead. For one thing, I really quite like her, and also, I want to put her in my fic. I know it doesn't matter what Harry Potter Wiki says. If Snape can be resurrected in fic, I am sure Lavender can. But it's annoying me. Hands up who thinks Lavender is still alive at the end of Deathly Hallows? I mean, if you think that's what JKR intended, not just your own personal head canon.

Also, if she's alive, then she's a werewolf, I presume? Or did I get that wrong? Where are all the Were!Lav fics? Probably in those dark and scary comms I never go to. Or is being a werewolf now just one of those annoying little things that we don't mention in polite company, like having a verruca or something?

Come and tell me all the things about Lavender, I beg you!

Comments

[birdsofshore]

Yes, I like the potential for Lavender as a character. I was a bit shocked to read she was "officially" dead according to some O.o

[birdsofshore]

Apparently you can staunch werewolf bites with silver and dittany! I am sure someone was just hanging around with some...

[birdsofshore]

fantastic rec, thank you! Yes, a meat-loving Lavender is very appealing somehow. It fits in with her slightly predatory approach to life :DD

I rarely let little details like supposed 'canon death' interfere with what I want to write.

I like your style XD

[ashindk.livejournal.com]

Of course. It's Hogwarts. They have Snape as Headmaster. I'm sure their potions-supplies are well stocked.

[eidheann_writes]

JKR made many references to Fenrir being v werewolf-like even in "human" form. I always assumed it was just how he moved & attacked just generally.

[amorette.livejournal.com]

I also interpreted that she is injured but alive. And I like to keep her alive abd a werewolf :D. I think its fun that way.

[birdsofshore]

ALSO: (over thinking)
"feebly stirring" really implies the person, although injured, is coming round, NOT dying. I just checked this very scientifically with Mr Birds and he agrees if someone is 'feebly stirring' then they are recovering rather than fading away.

If you want someone to be dying, you don't write their last appearance in canon to show them getting better.

(Edited to improve my appalling grammar)

[birdsofshore]

YES GOOD. Another tick :D

[birdsofshore]

yes arrgh all the yes. EVERYONE ON THE THREAD IS COMPLETELY RIGHT ALL OF THE TIME.

except wiki

[eidheann_writes]

JKR doesn't provide a complete list that I know of, but she does specifically mention those who Harry knows enough to feel personally hurt about. And as stated, if Colin is enough to mention, so should Lav be.

[emansil-12.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I think Lavender survived the attack, otherwise like others have said that's very uncaring for her death to not have been acknowledged. What happened to her afterward is unclear.

But, and I probably should not admit this, whenever there is discrepancy between book canon and movie canon, (I pay little attention to what jkr may have said afterwards) I go with what works best for the story I may be writing. Sometimes I've even gone so far as to have a mixmash of both book and movie canon in the same fic.

I've also found some other strange, imo discrepancies in Harry Potter wiki.

[torino10154]

Butting in to say, I think choosing one or the other for a story is very different. I mean as fanfic writers we ALL bend canon to our needs from time to time. But I can acknowledge when I decide to follow movie canon as a preference rather than believing it IS canon which is what I feel like some do or just not knowing canon well enough to know better. Which also isn't to say we don't sometimes make mistakes--but having Wiki tell us the wrong thing certainly makes it hard to double check. :P

[birdsofshore]

I think that's perfectly reasonable. After all, we are writing fanFICTION, not fan historically proven facts.

[melusinahp.livejournal.com]

I my HP world, she's absolutely alive. I'd find it way too upsetting if she were killed like that by Fenrir.

And I don't take anything to do with the movies as canon. In the movie there was a scene between Trelawney and Parvati in which they acknowledged that Lavender had died, I think, but I don't think that means the same for the book.

She is an awesome character to play with in fic. I really love her and love writing her. She wouldn't be a werewolf, though, because Fenrir was in human form when he attacked her. She'd just be permanently scarred and perhaps prefer her meat a little under-cooked, like Bill.

[emansil-12.livejournal.com]

I usually will try to say upfront if I followed movie or book canon, or both, but sometimes I don't think about it.

But yes, some of the stuff I've read recently on Wiki has had me wondering if I'd been under some sort of drug induced coma the 4 (or more in some instances) times I'd read the books. Cause I sure didn't remember it that way.

[drarryxlover.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure she died. Later on, probably because nobody could give her medical attention immediately, which makes me said cause then I think she probably died slowly and painfully.

I recall seeing JKR saying somewhere that she died, and the film made it so people wouldn't keep guessing, I think, give some closure to her storyline that she never got from the book. For all we know she could have been one of the dead layed out in the hall but Harry was too busy looking at the Weasleys around Fred's body, and Lupin and Tonks, to pay much attention.

[writcraft]

Dude. I don't think Snape died :D

But then, I have my foibles.

I have had many debates on canon vs. secondary canon, however. It's not book canon that Lavender died and therefore I think there is a bit of an open playing field.

Edit: To add many disagree with me on my secondary canon views.

[tryslora]

When I first read DH, I was planning to play Lavender in a post-DH roleplaying game, so I did a very close read with respect to what happened to her (and Dean, but that's beside the point). My personal canon is that she survived, with a great amount of scarring, and that she is something similar to Bill Weasley. It wasn't the fullmoon, and there is no mention (if I recall) of Greyback being transformed. We know from HBP that this resulted in Bill having a temper and a craving for red meat around the full moon, but nothing more than that, so I assumed Lavender (in canon) suffers the same.

This doesn't stop me from doing other things to her, including having written her out through death, made her into a werewolf, and scarred her emotionally. I love Lavender, and I've written her a bit (as well as RPing her a good bit).

But yeah, in my mind, she lived, but it wasn't a pretty survival.

[tryslora]

To add: When I read the book, I saw that scene as a significant character advancement moment. Hermione, who HATED Lavender because Lav stole Ron, had grown enough as a person to save Lavender's life. She very specifically saved the girl who had tormented her (however unwittingly) just a year before. And I found this significant, and that's part of the reason I assumed Lavender lived, because it missed the point of the scene if she died.

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

I was recently researching something and HP Wiki made a definitive statement on something not at all covered in canon and gave the source as the HP Lego Video Game. Mad, the lot of them.

I agree with you entirely! Let Lavender Live, I say!

[torino10154]

Oh, my. That is special. O_o

[fantasyfiend09.livejournal.com]

because it missed the point of the scene if she died. This!

I always saw this as the scene in which Hermione saves Lavender. When I read DH, I took it to mean she was bitten, bleeding, injured, but alive. Yes it's a battle, but I imagine medical help was available. I imagine Poppy was rushing casting healing spells instead of Curses. Someone had the time to line up the dead, so surely they were dealing with the wounded.

To me, the films are just a fan work. Fun, enjoyable, but NOT canon. Unless JKR publishes a revised DH in which Lavender explicitly dies, then we have as much right to saw that she survived as any other character not explicitly killed.

[torino10154]

Dude. I don't think Snape died :D

I knew I liked you. *vbg* Actually Accio and I were just discussing Snape. It's pointed out she's moving a bit while Snape has stopped moving (though, as you say, there is wiggle room for even him).

[writcraft]

:D

He was living with a gigantic snake for a relatively long time. He is written as a highly capable dark wizard with skills beyond his years, creating his own advanced spells as a teenager, easily brewing potions of significant complexity and learning how to fly, ffs. I don't see his portrait or his body in the Great Hall in book canon, and hence I cling to my belief that he lives. Secondary canon on that, be damned.

[writcraft]

Apologies for the spam, but to get a bit more meta about secondary canon and Snape, I think it's much easier for those of us who choose to write him as living than say...writing Harry as a chef immediately post war. I had a really fun discussion with melusinahp on a post at the HP Darkarts comm about secondary canon and characterisation, in the context of a broader discussion on Harry. It made me revisit a lot of my own 'death of the author' views, and I entirely understood Mel's rationale about how JKR interviews regarding Harry going on to be an Auror and so on, could be useful and important when writing Harry in fic.

What I think we have with Snape as far as secondary canon goes is a blank canvas. Because he's dead, isn't he? Yet canon never gives us the finality of seeing his body stretched out next to Remus, Tonks, Fred and all of the others. It doesn't give us the 'falling through the veil' scene. He is bitten by a snake, we believe fatally, because he stops moving completely. Harry dashes off to continue fighting the good fight and that's the last we see of Severus. As far as Epilogue compliant writing goes, Harry talks about Severus as if he is deceased just as Dumbledore is deceased, but we never see that final confirmation. For me, Severus living can be canon compliant without messing about with JKRs written words.

To avoid hijacking Birds post, the same is true of Lavender. We don't see her in the Great Hall. We don't have anything which acknowledges she has been killed, as opposed to maimed. Hence for me, she lives.