Did Lavender die?

[birdsofshore]

This has been puzzling me lately.

In Deathly Hallows it says:

"Two bodies fell from the balcony overhead as they reached the ground a grey blur that Harry took for an animal sped four-legged across the hall to sink its teeth into one of the fallen. "NO!" shrieked Hermione, and with a deafening blast from her wand, Fenrir Greyback was thrown backward from the feebly stirring body of Lavender Brown. He hit the marble banisters and struggled to return to his feet. Then, with a bright white flash and a crack, a crystal ball fell on top of his head, and he crumpled to the ground and did not move."

So, "feebly stirring" to me, meant that she was injured, perhaps seriously injured, but not dead. When I read it, I expected her to get medical treatment after the Battle was over, and that she would survive.

Then, when I saw the film version of Deathly Hallows, I noticed that it looks as if Lavender is killed by Greyback during the attack. You could argue she is unconscious, or paralysed, but she does look dead. However I just passed it off as either a) making her look more seriously injured to be dramatic, or b) one of those things where the films differ from the books. I don't count film canon as superceding book canon, in any case.

However, when I went to Harry Potter Wiki to check something, (yes, yes, I know it's not exactly the most pre-eminent source, but where else do I look?) they are quite certain that Lav is dead:

"Immediately after the attack, she was seen feebly stirring, but later died from her injuries."

They cite Harry Potter Page to Screen: The Complete Filmmaking Journey as the source for this. I do actually own this book, and it's lovely, but it's freaking massive and I am not trawling through it at the moment to see on whose say-so Lavender allegedly died.

Now, I've seen Lavender alive and kicking in several fanfics lately. I don't want her to be dead. For one thing, I really quite like her, and also, I want to put her in my fic. I know it doesn't matter what Harry Potter Wiki says. If Snape can be resurrected in fic, I am sure Lavender can. But it's annoying me. Hands up who thinks Lavender is still alive at the end of Deathly Hallows? I mean, if you think that's what JKR intended, not just your own personal head canon.

Also, if she's alive, then she's a werewolf, I presume? Or did I get that wrong? Where are all the Were!Lav fics? Probably in those dark and scary comms I never go to. Or is being a werewolf now just one of those annoying little things that we don't mention in polite company, like having a verruca or something?

Come and tell me all the things about Lavender, I beg you!

Comments

[drarryisgreen]

I was always under the impression that she died. I also read on Harry Potter Wiki that she dies from her injuries.

[birdsofshore]

Well, yes. I know Harry Potter wiki says that. (I quoted from it in my post).

But I want to know if people think that the BOOK says she died, and if not, does that mean that it's just one of those weird book / film discrepancies?

[mab.livejournal.com]

I think her death is ambiguous in canon. It's likely that JK has said in interviews that she died from her wounds after the battle, but I think it's up to the reader's interpretation. When I think of Lavendar, I like to think she survived, but with scarring similar to Bill Weasley's. Fenrir Greyback was not transformed when he attacked her, so she'd have some contamination, but likely not become a werewolf, as happened with Bill.

[birdsofshore]

Oh of course! He wasn't transformed (in my head canon I think he was). Wiki says:

" If a werewolf is in human form and bites the victim, they will merely gain lupine tendencies such as a fondness for rare meat[1]. Any bite or scratch obtained from a werewolf, whether in human or animal form, will leave permanent scars[1]."

and now I remember I have read a lovely fanfic Lavender who does have a taste for raw meat. I don't know why it strikes me as amusing, heh.

I could not find any interview canon. I think it's just this film book that says it, and I will have a hunt in it for the reference at some point. I just think if JKR wanted her dead, she would have killed her properly, you know what I mean?

[torino10154]

This is something that makes me insane and a reason I will not use Wiki anymore. They say that because the movie shows her dying and canon does not disprove it, then she died. They also say JKR could have insisted they change it. Though there are TONS of things JKR let them do which aren't canon so I think that's fairly crap. I think canon leaves it vague, then movie!canon does not trump it. Basically I think the burden of proof should be reversed to how they are using it at Wiki. /rant

Now, I have no idea if there are JKR comments or Pottermore stuff anywhere but if there was, I'd think the Wiki people would use that to bolster their arguments.

[birdsofshore]

YY!

"I think canon leaves it vague, then movie!canon does not trump it. Basically I think the burden of proof should be reversed to how they are using it at Wiki. /rant"

and also

"I have no idea if there are JKR comments or Pottermore stuff anywhere but if there was, I'd think the Wiki people would use that to bolster their arguments."

and really, everything you said :DD

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

I was recently researching something and HP Wiki made a definitive statement on something not at all covered in canon and gave the source as the HP Lego Video Game. Mad, the lot of them.

I agree with you entirely! Let Lavender Live, I say!

[capitu]

I always thought she didn't. I mean, it's never stated, and she's an important character, as important as Colin, so her death would be acknowledged.

Besides, JKR would have said if she did, she would never leave us hanging there, not knowing if she lived or died and… wait… lol

[birdsofshore]

Yes I think it would be disrespectful to have her die and not be mourned properly.

LOL at your last sentence. I was definitely not in any doubt about her surviving until I saw the film, and then I thought "OH, you think THAT...? Did I read it wrong, or....?"

[talithan.livejournal.com]

I like the idea of her living through the attack but suffering from permanent aftereffects, be it scarring, other injury, and/or becoming a werewolf herself. I'm always interested in the exploration of post-war damage, both mental and physical, and a few post-war stories I've read have had really interesting takes on Lavender adjusting to severe facial scarring or wolf-like tendencies. I really don't consider any movie-only things to be canon, and from what it says in the book there's no reason to believe she's dead.

[evilgiraff.livejournal.com]

Yes, this, exactly.

Birds, read talithan's comment again if you want my opinion!

[capitu]

Yes, I love reading fics that explore the post-war damage. Ohh, and you know what else? The neglect Harry suffered while he was kept (he wasn't raised!) by the Dursleys and it still affects him now (as an adult).

But I'm with you, it's the books canon that counts. *nods*

[geneva2010.livejournal.com]

I don't think Lavender died. In fact, I don't think the movie shows her definitely dead either, although now that I think on it, there are open eyes, right? Not a good sign!

I can see why the confusion.

If she was feebly stirring, and with the how wizarding medicine can bring people back from the brink of death (sectumsempra), I choose to believe that they got to her in time. And she would have the permanent wolfy injuries like Bill, poor thing.

[birdsofshore]

Apparently you can staunch werewolf bites with silver and dittany! I am sure someone was just hanging around with some...

[alisanne.livejournal.com]

In my mind Lavender is alive and, like Bill Weasley, is very fond of rare meat, lol.
Also, as a Snarry shipper, I rarely let little details like supposed 'canon death' interfere with what I want to write. *shrugs*

As for were!Lav fics... My favorite is by snegurochka_lee and is called "Lava Girl and the Ink Drop (HERE at DD if you're interested). It's long but it's Lee, so it's totally worth it.

[birdsofshore]

fantastic rec, thank you! Yes, a meat-loving Lavender is very appealing somehow. It fits in with her slightly predatory approach to life :DD

I rarely let little details like supposed 'canon death' interfere with what I want to write.

I like your style XD

[amorette.livejournal.com]

I also interpreted that she is injured but alive. And I like to keep her alive abd a werewolf :D. I think its fun that way.

[birdsofshore]

YES GOOD. Another tick :D

[emansil-12.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I think Lavender survived the attack, otherwise like others have said that's very uncaring for her death to not have been acknowledged. What happened to her afterward is unclear.

But, and I probably should not admit this, whenever there is discrepancy between book canon and movie canon, (I pay little attention to what jkr may have said afterwards) I go with what works best for the story I may be writing. Sometimes I've even gone so far as to have a mixmash of both book and movie canon in the same fic.

I've also found some other strange, imo discrepancies in Harry Potter wiki.

[torino10154]

Butting in to say, I think choosing one or the other for a story is very different. I mean as fanfic writers we ALL bend canon to our needs from time to time. But I can acknowledge when I decide to follow movie canon as a preference rather than believing it IS canon which is what I feel like some do or just not knowing canon well enough to know better. Which also isn't to say we don't sometimes make mistakes--but having Wiki tell us the wrong thing certainly makes it hard to double check. :P

[melusinahp.livejournal.com]

I my HP world, she's absolutely alive. I'd find it way too upsetting if she were killed like that by Fenrir.

And I don't take anything to do with the movies as canon. In the movie there was a scene between Trelawney and Parvati in which they acknowledged that Lavender had died, I think, but I don't think that means the same for the book.

She is an awesome character to play with in fic. I really love her and love writing her. She wouldn't be a werewolf, though, because Fenrir was in human form when he attacked her. She'd just be permanently scarred and perhaps prefer her meat a little under-cooked, like Bill.

[birdsofshore]

I'm just sneaking her into a fic at the moment, but I'd love to try writing more about her at some point. I agree she is interesting and I have a lot of admiration for her!

[drarryxlover.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure she died. Later on, probably because nobody could give her medical attention immediately, which makes me said cause then I think she probably died slowly and painfully.

I recall seeing JKR saying somewhere that she died, and the film made it so people wouldn't keep guessing, I think, give some closure to her storyline that she never got from the book. For all we know she could have been one of the dead layed out in the hall but Harry was too busy looking at the Weasleys around Fred's body, and Lupin and Tonks, to pay much attention.

[birdsofshore]

Ah, that's a really sad reading of it. It's very bleak to think of her dying in pain and untended.

I don't think JKR has ever commented on it, because interview canon usually gets quoted widely, and that isn't happening here.

I think Harry would have noticed ALL of the dead, I really do. Even if his focus was on his close friends.

[writcraft]

Dude. I don't think Snape died :D

But then, I have my foibles.

I have had many debates on canon vs. secondary canon, however. It's not book canon that Lavender died and therefore I think there is a bit of an open playing field.

Edit: To add many disagree with me on my secondary canon views.

[torino10154]

Dude. I don't think Snape died :D

I knew I liked you. *vbg* Actually Accio and I were just discussing Snape. It's pointed out she's moving a bit while Snape has stopped moving (though, as you say, there is wiggle room for even him).

[tryslora]

When I first read DH, I was planning to play Lavender in a post-DH roleplaying game, so I did a very close read with respect to what happened to her (and Dean, but that's beside the point). My personal canon is that she survived, with a great amount of scarring, and that she is something similar to Bill Weasley. It wasn't the fullmoon, and there is no mention (if I recall) of Greyback being transformed. We know from HBP that this resulted in Bill having a temper and a craving for red meat around the full moon, but nothing more than that, so I assumed Lavender (in canon) suffers the same.

This doesn't stop me from doing other things to her, including having written her out through death, made her into a werewolf, and scarred her emotionally. I love Lavender, and I've written her a bit (as well as RPing her a good bit).

But yeah, in my mind, she lived, but it wasn't a pretty survival.

[tryslora]

To add: When I read the book, I saw that scene as a significant character advancement moment. Hermione, who HATED Lavender because Lav stole Ron, had grown enough as a person to save Lavender's life. She very specifically saved the girl who had tormented her (however unwittingly) just a year before. And I found this significant, and that's part of the reason I assumed Lavender lived, because it missed the point of the scene if she died.

[rabbit-says.livejournal.com]

Oh no! Somehow I totally missed that scene from the movie! I always thought she survived - I kinda liked Lavender ♥

[birdsofshore]

Don't worry, it's only the movie! Book!Lavender lives!

[nathalieweasley.livejournal.com]

I have seen a variety of fics where Lavender is in all sorts of states of existence. She dies, she lives (I've seen her paired with George and Seamus), and where she has some sort of affect from Greyback's attack, bet it full-on were or more Bill-esque effects. There seems to be a decent amount of Hermione and Lavender make-up scenes.

Off the top of my head, here is a partial-Were!Lav fic (written by the fabulous Pinky Brown): Kiss Me, I'm Irish

Author’s summary: This story follows immediately on from the events of Pub Crawl and my first fic to focus on someone other than Ron. In the aftermath of the war, Seamus and Lavender find that a friend makes all the difference, especially when they come with benefits.

ETA: Personally, I feel that the books are vague enough so that she could either have lived or died.

[birdsofshore]

You're right, it would be quite feasible to show her either dead or alive after the battle. You could explain what happened after we see her attacked by Greyback, and it wouldn't be at all unbelievable to show her dying later from her injuries. What annoys me are the wesbites stating this definitely happened.

Thank you for the Were!Lav rec! Partial-were!Lav sounds very intriguing.

[dannyfranx.livejournal.com]

I think if you want her to be alive for her story put her in you story. I was struggling with this myself the other day. I wanted to write something set immediately after the war, but any way i cut it it was way more angsty than I wanted it to be because of Fred and because of the destruction of Andromeda's family. In the end Nat encouraged me to say fuck it. So now Fred and Tonks are alive and I am unrepentant. If I can do that to Fred and Tonks who are not even slightly ambiguous then you can definitely use Lavender.

[birdsofshore]

Yes! I'm always happy to read stories with resurrected characters myself. I don't really have any qualms about writing Lavender as alive. It just rankled with me that it was a definitive statement she was dead, when it's open to interpretation.

[nenne.livejournal.com]

I always thought she survived. The movies have had so many changes and rewrites that I don't count them as canon.

[birdsofshore]

I know just what you mean. It's good to hear a lot of people agree that Lavender survived!

[faithwood.livejournal.com]

So, so late to this party.

Nonetheless... someone (possibly you??) said above that you simply don't say a character 'stirred' in the last scene they're mentioned, if you meant for them to die. That's just weird writing and should never get past a half-decent editor.

She stirred, she lived; had she been frozen/still/unmoving/whatever we'd know she's dead.

It's one of those things. Like the Draco Malfoy's Dark Mark debate. I simply cannot see it as ambiguous. The claim is: we didn't see him show us his Mark; therefore, it's possible he doesn't have one.

It's just... his Dark Mark was used as an actual clue that Harry had to solve in order to figure out Voldemort's actual plan for Draco. And Harry was right and Draco's Dark Mark was instrumental to solving this puzzle. It's just not possible to go back from that and claim, after the book ended, that, lol, no, Draco didn't actually have the Mark; the fact that the idea led Harry to the right conclusion was merely an accident.

No, no, no. Not even the author can contradict the obvious implication of the text like that.

(I'm not saying that one can't explore different possibilities in fics. Of course not! Go for it! I'm just saying that the actual text is clear: Lavender is alive; Draco received the Dark Mark. I'm just... PUTTING MY FOOT DOWN, OKAY.)

Also, yes to the Lavender thing being a Hermione character moment, which, if Lavender had died, would become pointless.

[birdsofshore]

I'm so happy to read your thoughts! I read the scene to Mr Birds (I may have said this upthread already) without telling him the context, and asked "is that person about to recover, or are they dying?" He was totally unambivalent that the person was coming round from the attack.