Did Lavender die?

[birdsofshore]

This has been puzzling me lately.

In Deathly Hallows it says:

"Two bodies fell from the balcony overhead as they reached the ground a grey blur that Harry took for an animal sped four-legged across the hall to sink its teeth into one of the fallen. "NO!" shrieked Hermione, and with a deafening blast from her wand, Fenrir Greyback was thrown backward from the feebly stirring body of Lavender Brown. He hit the marble banisters and struggled to return to his feet. Then, with a bright white flash and a crack, a crystal ball fell on top of his head, and he crumpled to the ground and did not move."

So, "feebly stirring" to me, meant that she was injured, perhaps seriously injured, but not dead. When I read it, I expected her to get medical treatment after the Battle was over, and that she would survive.

Then, when I saw the film version of Deathly Hallows, I noticed that it looks as if Lavender is killed by Greyback during the attack. You could argue she is unconscious, or paralysed, but she does look dead. However I just passed it off as either a) making her look more seriously injured to be dramatic, or b) one of those things where the films differ from the books. I don't count film canon as superceding book canon, in any case.

However, when I went to Harry Potter Wiki to check something, (yes, yes, I know it's not exactly the most pre-eminent source, but where else do I look?) they are quite certain that Lav is dead:

"Immediately after the attack, she was seen feebly stirring, but later died from her injuries."

They cite Harry Potter Page to Screen: The Complete Filmmaking Journey as the source for this. I do actually own this book, and it's lovely, but it's freaking massive and I am not trawling through it at the moment to see on whose say-so Lavender allegedly died.

Now, I've seen Lavender alive and kicking in several fanfics lately. I don't want her to be dead. For one thing, I really quite like her, and also, I want to put her in my fic. I know it doesn't matter what Harry Potter Wiki says. If Snape can be resurrected in fic, I am sure Lavender can. But it's annoying me. Hands up who thinks Lavender is still alive at the end of Deathly Hallows? I mean, if you think that's what JKR intended, not just your own personal head canon.

Also, if she's alive, then she's a werewolf, I presume? Or did I get that wrong? Where are all the Were!Lav fics? Probably in those dark and scary comms I never go to. Or is being a werewolf now just one of those annoying little things that we don't mention in polite company, like having a verruca or something?

Come and tell me all the things about Lavender, I beg you!

Comments

[drarryisgreen]

I was always under the impression that she died. I also read on Harry Potter Wiki that she dies from her injuries.

[birdsofshore]

Well, yes. I know Harry Potter wiki says that. (I quoted from it in my post).

But I want to know if people think that the BOOK says she died, and if not, does that mean that it's just one of those weird book / film discrepancies?

[drarryisgreen]

I was always under the impression that the movies got it wrong--like most things. :D

[mab.livejournal.com]

I think her death is ambiguous in canon. It's likely that JK has said in interviews that she died from her wounds after the battle, but I think it's up to the reader's interpretation. When I think of Lavendar, I like to think she survived, but with scarring similar to Bill Weasley's. Fenrir Greyback was not transformed when he attacked her, so she'd have some contamination, but likely not become a werewolf, as happened with Bill.

[torino10154]

This is something that makes me insane and a reason I will not use Wiki anymore. They say that because the movie shows her dying and canon does not disprove it, then she died. They also say JKR could have insisted they change it. Though there are TONS of things JKR let them do which aren't canon so I think that's fairly crap. I think canon leaves it vague, then movie!canon does not trump it. Basically I think the burden of proof should be reversed to how they are using it at Wiki. /rant

Now, I have no idea if there are JKR comments or Pottermore stuff anywhere but if there was, I'd think the Wiki people would use that to bolster their arguments.

[birdsofshore]

Oh of course! He wasn't transformed (in my head canon I think he was). Wiki says:

" If a werewolf is in human form and bites the victim, they will merely gain lupine tendencies such as a fondness for rare meat[1]. Any bite or scratch obtained from a werewolf, whether in human or animal form, will leave permanent scars[1]."

and now I remember I have read a lovely fanfic Lavender who does have a taste for raw meat. I don't know why it strikes me as amusing, heh.

I could not find any interview canon. I think it's just this film book that says it, and I will have a hunt in it for the reference at some point. I just think if JKR wanted her dead, she would have killed her properly, you know what I mean?

[birdsofshore]

Am confused now whether you think she died or not! LOL it is late here, ignore me

[capitu]

I always thought she didn't. I mean, it's never stated, and she's an important character, as important as Colin, so her death would be acknowledged.

Besides, JKR would have said if she did, she would never leave us hanging there, not knowing if she lived or died and… wait… lol

[birdsofshore]

YY!

"I think canon leaves it vague, then movie!canon does not trump it. Basically I think the burden of proof should be reversed to how they are using it at Wiki. /rant"

and also

"I have no idea if there are JKR comments or Pottermore stuff anywhere but if there was, I'd think the Wiki people would use that to bolster their arguments."

and really, everything you said :DD

[birdsofshore]

Yes I think it would be disrespectful to have her die and not be mourned properly.

LOL at your last sentence. I was definitely not in any doubt about her surviving until I saw the film, and then I thought "OH, you think THAT...? Did I read it wrong, or....?"

[talithan.livejournal.com]

I like the idea of her living through the attack but suffering from permanent aftereffects, be it scarring, other injury, and/or becoming a werewolf herself. I'm always interested in the exploration of post-war damage, both mental and physical, and a few post-war stories I've read have had really interesting takes on Lavender adjusting to severe facial scarring or wolf-like tendencies. I really don't consider any movie-only things to be canon, and from what it says in the book there's no reason to believe she's dead.

[torino10154]

I sound very accusatory in my comment so I just wanted to add that it's controversial at the Wiki site itself with a whole separate entry about why they've made this decision, blah blah blah. ;)

[eidheann_writes]

Agree. Not listed in the dead count = not dead. But scarred like Bill.

[capitu]

I know, right? She's like, ha! take that! or something.


Ohh, this sort of thing make me wish so bad I was in fandom like now after HBP. Oohhhhh, the meta I missed about!

[evilgiraff.livejournal.com]

Yes, this, exactly.

Birds, read talithan's comment again if you want my opinion!

[capitu]

Yes, I love reading fics that explore the post-war damage. Ohh, and you know what else? The neglect Harry suffered while he was kept (he wasn't raised!) by the Dursleys and it still affects him now (as an adult).

But I'm with you, it's the books canon that counts. *nods*

[ashindk.livejournal.com]

I think maybe he was transformed? Harry mistook him for an animal, and he moved four-legged, from what you just quoted in your post. A werewolf wouldn't resemble an animal like that if it wasn't transformed,would it?

[geneva2010.livejournal.com]

I don't think Lavender died. In fact, I don't think the movie shows her definitely dead either, although now that I think on it, there are open eyes, right? Not a good sign!

I can see why the confusion.

If she was feebly stirring, and with the how wizarding medicine can bring people back from the brink of death (sectumsempra), I choose to believe that they got to her in time. And she would have the permanent wolfy injuries like Bill, poor thing.

[birdsofshore]

yes yes he DID! Unless he just moved like that?

Oh now I don't know what to think :S

[geneva2010.livejournal.com]

Is there a place where the dead are listed?

[alisanne.livejournal.com]

In my mind Lavender is alive and, like Bill Weasley, is very fond of rare meat, lol.
Also, as a Snarry shipper, I rarely let little details like supposed 'canon death' interfere with what I want to write. *shrugs*

As for were!Lav fics... My favorite is by snegurochka_lee and is called "Lava Girl and the Ink Drop (HERE at DD if you're interested). It's long but it's Lee, so it's totally worth it.

[ashindk.livejournal.com]

I think maybe this is an 'anything goes' situation; werewolf, dead, injured but not a werewolf.... They're all possible outcomes when it comes to (book)canon.

[birdsofshore]

Well, I missed that! I will go and have another poke about/ thanks!

[birdsofshore]

I think eidheann means, if JKR doesn't explicitly say she died, she didn't die. I agree.

[birdsofshore]

yes, i think we mostly agree. Torino said the same upthread as well; it's nice to have some vindication because I have been feeling annoyed about it since I read the wiki entry!